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Re: TRIEDITALL pls read

From: Bryan
Date: 10/27/2002
Time: 12:28:27 AM
Remote Name: 66.94.138.110

Comments

>>A) I didn't say I think it is incorrect when someone substitutes testicle for gonad or vice/versa in general conversation, nor that it is my pet peeve. I said that it is incorrect to use the phrase Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular axis.<<

When someone uses that full term, it IS in "general conversation". There's nothing wrong with it at all.

>>You see, the original (and correct) term, Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Gonad axis should be used because after the abstract and introduction in a study in which the authors first spell out Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular axis, they will undoubtedly use the initials HPT for later reference.<<

I think that's a pretty silly reason to object to it when it's used clearly and unambiguously, and not abbreviated.

>>This is incorrect as HPT stands for Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Thyroid axis. The reason THAT is a pet peeve of mine is because my job involves the research of published studies in the field of endocrinology. I have seen the phrase used many times, even published in journals...<<

So have I! It's not unusual to see that at all. That says a hell of a lot, doesn't it?

>>...but that doesn't make it right. I was only trying to educate you on the proper terminology.<<

You haven't convinced me that it's the "proper terminology". You've explained to me your particular word preference, but I don't think your opinion necessarily sets the standard for the entire medical field!

>>B) I NEVER stated that LH doesn't determine the level of testosterone produced in the testes. If you "don't understand what I mean", then perhaps you should research the difference between short loop and long loop negative feedback. It is basically the reason why excess test levels will reduce the production of LH in the long run.<<

Not if the HPG axis (See? I'm trying to be nice to you by using your own preferred term) is more responsive to estrogen and DHT than it is to testosterone itself, and you start monkeying around with your hormones by reducing them both (estrogen and DHT). That's what I've been trying to explain to you, and what you don't appear to understand.

>>C) You claim to be knowledgeable about the subject of LH production...<<

I have NEVER EVER claimed to be "knowledgeable" about LH production. However, I have read about it a little bit; enough to know that it comes from the pituitary and not the "gonads"! ;-)

>>...and then actually think you need to tell me that LH isn't produced in the testes. By "gonads" in my sentence, I am referring to gonadotrophs, which are the cells in the anterior pituitary that produce LH. Had I been writing that reply to the young man whose questions started this ball rolling, I wouldn't have abbreviated.<<

Oh my God!!! You used "gonads" when you REALLY meant "gonadotrophs"?! And you have the unmitigated GALL to chastise me for a very common word substitution that wasn't even an error?? LOL!!

>>D) So, you think the body would produce high levels of test indefinitely with total DHT and Estrogen inhibition?<<

Yes I do, unless you can be kind enough to cite me a reference to the contrary.

>>A two second search on Google revealed this link: www.neurosci.pharm.utoledo.edu/MBC3320/Androgens.htm.<<

Did you even read that page yourself? I don't see anything in it that would contradict my position. Please explain your reason for providing that link.

>>I'm sure with about ten minutes more time, or access to an online medical library such as the one I use at my job, I could find a large body of work that illustrates the process of Long-loop negative feedback. This biological occurence happens when too much testosterone is present whether the test is introduced to the body extraneously or through hormone manipulation such as total DHT and Estrogen suppression.<<

You STILL don't seem to get it. Obviously there's a "long-loop" negative feedback mechanism for controlling levels of testosterone, but I'm trying to tell you that that mechanism IS NOT JUST DIRECTLY SENSITIVE TO LEVELS OF TESTOSTERONE PER SE, IT'S ALSO SENSITIVE TO ESTROGEN AND DHT. Those particular hormones also control LH release (and hence, testosterone production), and they are quite important in that regard.

I think your paragraph just above really demonstrates to me what this whole misunderstanding has probably been about: you've been assuming that I've simply been talking about that bit of testosterone increase that comes about when you inhibit the enzymes (like 5a-R and aromatase) that metabolize it into other substances. But that is NOT what I've been talking about!! I'm talking about the reduced negative feedback that you get when you suppress both estrogen and DHT; that makes the brain THINK that there's less testosterone, because it's also very sensitive to levels of estrogen and DHT. When you start suppressing both estrogen and DHT, your testosterone is going to go up for BOTH reasons: partly because less will be metabolized away, but mainly because the pituitary will be releasing more LH, which stimulates more testosterone production. And as far as I know, that will continue indefinitely (unless you can provide me with a valid reference which proves otherwise).

>>E) I also NEVER stated that DHT and Estrogen aren't "players in the negative feedback system". I only stated that the total inhibition of both would actually raise testosterone levels enough to lower the production of LH in the LONG RUN, and consequently, the production of testosterone.<<

Right! And now I think you *finally* understand what I meant when I said that they are "players"! They are DIRECT players in the negative-feedback mechanism.

Bryan

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